The western idea of
yoga is utilitarian and materialistic. We call it "rationality", while in
ancient India the absence of spiritual values was called avidya, "disease and
defilement of mind". Until a person experiences the nature of sansara and
realizes why he must free himself from mind delusions and karmic imprints, he
has no true motivation to practice yoga.
An interview with Ilya Zhuravlev
october
2010
Can you remember
your first encounter with yoga? How did it happen? What lead you into yoga?
It was the year 1995 or
1996; I was studying at the Faculty of Philosophy. Among other subject we had
“Indian philosophy”, where we studied Upanishads, a two-volume book about
classical Indian philosophy by Radhakrishnan…
I really liked this subject, because despite, let’s say, the rock-n-roll
lifestyle I lead at that time, I also took interest in transpersonal experience
and the spiritual cultures of the East. My friends and I would also read the
novels by Carlos Castaneda and even traced some ideas resembling the
phenomenology of Gusserl. We also studied the works of the famous anthropologist
Mircea Eliade, who spent several years in India, studying yoga.
And once our professor told
me that there were some Indian teacher was giving hatha yoga classes in the
Indian embassy in Moscow. He told me that he (the professor) even wanted to try
and attend a class and he was looking for somebody to come with him. And I
decided to give it a try. At that time I had a book of Svami Vishnudevananda,
one of Sivananda’s most famous disciples, “The Complete Illustrated Book of
Yoga”, a kind of avocational russian edition, printed on wrapping paper, with
drawings of asanas instead of the original pictures. Sometimes I tried to
actually do some asanas with the help of this book, but I didn’t have enough
knowledge and persistence. And so we went to the embassy… The professor didn’t
go further than one class, and I stayed there.
Thus, Jayakumar Swamisri,
who had been teaching in the Indian cultural centre in the embassy for several
years, became my first yoga teacher. He had studied in the Vivekananda Yoga
Kendra Institute, Bangalore, a governmental institution preparing
yoga-therapists. As well as in the institute of Swami Kuvalayananda. The yoga
practice was similar to Sivananda yoga, as it is actually practiced in most
usual Indian schools: doing a couple of positions and then doing shavasana. It’s
quite a relaxed mode. The class of asanas lasted only 45 minutes, but it wasn’t
easy, because I hadn’t really been into sports before this. Some elderly ladies
who had been attending the embassy classes for some years already, did
asanas better than me. Jayakumar was a huge enthusiast of what he was doing. He
taught in the way that is called ‘Purna Yoga’ in India, which is to say, the
‘complete’ or ‘integral’ yoga. Apart from asanas, we also studied pranayamas,
meditation techniques, he told us about Yoga Sutras, sometimes he even invited
us home and cooked for us some vegetarian Indian dishes. That’s why I consider
myself to be very lucky, because in addition to yoga exercises the teacher also
introduced the philosophy of yoga and yogic lifestyle. After several months of
practice, I quit all bad habits and started following a sattvic vegetarian diet.
These are usual things not only for a yoga teacher but for any practitioner in
India and among serious Western yogis.
When the Jayakumar
Swamisri’s contract finished in the late 90’s and he came back to Mysore (it is
interesting that despite being originally from Mysore, he had never done
Ashtanga Vinyasa, and had only heard something of it), I started attending the
classes of Russian teachers. At that time Igor Medvedev, former football player,
taught Ashtanga Vinyasa in Moscow, following the VHS cassettes of P. Jois and
his disciples. It was Olga Bulanova, one of Jayakumar’s students, who told me
about him. I took interest in Ashtanga Vinyasa because of its more intensive
approach to asanas; the “semi-lying” style was already a bit boring for me. At
the same time I started attending the seminars of Ukrainian teachers, Andrey
Sidersky and Andrey Lappa. In 1999 I joined the founders of Ashtanga Yoga Centre
in Moscow.
My first trip to India was
in 2001. I lived in Delhi and practiced in Morarji Desai National Yoga Institute
with Bal Mukund Singh (disciple of famous Swami Dhirendra Brahmachari). Then I
studied Ashtanga Vinyasa more deeply with B. N. S. Iyengar, the direct disciple
of Krishnamacharya, and his disciple V.Sheshadri. I have visited India every
year since then. I practiced in Mysore with Shri K. Pattabhi Jois and R.Sharath,
studied pranayama and shatkarmas with Dr. Madavan in Karur, Tamil Nadu. Attended
yoga classes in ashrams of Rishikesh and Pondicherry. I completed a teacher’s
course in Sivananda yoga ashram in Kerala. I also studied Tibetan styles of
asana practice in Buddhist and Bon traditions. Actually, it’s going to take
quite long if I mention everything, I have been quite inquisitive in this area.
I even have a CV, at my website mahadev108.com
You trained with a
lot of Indian, American and European masters. It presupposes introduction to
different schools, styles and approaches. Can you say what is common and what is
different between them?
Different approaches usually
concern the technique of asanas, less often, of pranayamas. If the Indian
masters give something more, the further things are the same, based on the key
ideas of Upanishads and Yoga Sutras. Most Western masters don’t usually go
beyond physical exercises and breathing techniques. In what concerns the mind
training, it seems as if they are sometimes, so to say, frightened, of the
Indian tradition, and prefer to confine themselves to the physical training or
offering some western ways of working with the consciousness . Maybe they
associate numerous officious trends of Neo-Hinduism that make the bulk of what
we have in the West, with the Indian tradition in general. There might be just
no interest towards the original yogic scriptures. Or they might understand
intuitively that the lifestyle of a “traditional” yogi should be built upon the
spiritual values, and they would like to continue basing their life upon
material ones.
Many progressive teachers
say that there is One Yoga, but there are different approaches towards physical
and breathing techniques. It may be so. The Chinese Wu-shu also has many styles.
But then we need to understand what the core of yoga is, if the different
approaches to asana practice represent a variable peripheral techniques.
The very word “yoga” is
known from the sanscrit texts of ancient India, and these were the Indian
masters who recorded these texts and developed the practices leading to the
state of yoga. Correspondingly, we can conclude that if the philosophy and
ultimate purpose of this or that particular school correspond with those
recorded in the primary sources, these training systems can be referred to yoga.
If the notion of self-realization, discovering Atman are neglected, it means
that we deal with some self-made training systems, merely using some particular
elements and techniques from yoga arsenal.
The western idea of yoga is utilitarian and materialistic. We call it
"rationality", while in ancient India the absence of spiritual values was called avidya,
"disease and defilement of mind". Until a person experiences the nature
of sansara and realizes why he must free himself from mind delusions and karmic
imprints, he has no true motivation to practice yoga. On the other hand, every
person has the right to walk their own path and nobody knows for sure what their
prospects in yoga are. One can take up yoga in order to lose weight, but after
some years find oneself deeply absorbed in serious practice. Another person,
especially well-trained physically, can start acting a “tough yogi” at the very
beginning, and then wimp out and become a couch potato, watching some stupid
TV-show with a can of beer and drowning in his kitchen-sink reality, like most
of his compatriots.
It is still typical of many
westerns teachers, as well as russian ones, to stick to the physical body only.
Prakriti (Matter) seems to be more important for them then Purusha (Spirit).
There is nothing strange in it; these are natural values of common mind. Men
admire slim cover girls and women admire muscular Tarzans. This is the work of
reproductive instinct, brightened up by the culture of our environment. However
one of the ideas of yoga is to gain independence of our human instinctive
mindsets, which do not differ much from those of animals. This is, of course,
inhumanly difficult. That’s why a realized yogi is no longer a usual human
being. It is not obligatory for all yoga practitioners to strive for it, but at
least it is good to know what purposes ancient yogis had, if you call your
practice “yoga”. Many teachers still think that gymnastic progress or pinpoint
precision of asanas make up the progress in yoga. Although Krishnamacharya would
show asanas on squares just to allure young people to yoga classes, the real
sign of his progress was, for example, an ability to stop his heartbeat
(demonstrated to French scientists in the 30’s), which means very strong control
over Prana. His technique of asanas that we can see in the well-known
black-white film (young B.K.S. Iyengar & Krishnamacharya 1938), at the same
time, would be totally criticized by all the Iyengar and Ashtanga practitioners,
if it was some unknown guy and not Krishnamacharya himself.
I understood from my own
experience that the personality and the spirit of the teacher play a crucial
role in creating the arsenal of techniques that he or she uses, and presenting
them. People of some particular mindset would find some particular style more
suitable, other people would choose the “opposite” one. But the teacher also
matters much. One starts straining after a teacher who inspires him or her as a
personality. Here we can see that “like calls to like”. A practitioner who has a
lot of “asuric” tendencies (Asuras in Indian mythology are demons, who fight
with each other and with the Gods all the time), would prefer the style of yoga
called “drop down and make 108 push-ups”. It gets even more interesting, if we
turn to Ashtanga Vinyasa style, the leading teachers can have different
mentality, and the ways of presenting the same method can vary and attract
different disciples. It was a pleasant surprise for me that most of the western
teachers that I have had a chance to deal with, lead sattvic lifestyle and share
the ideas of traditional yoga. What concerns Sivananda yoga and Bihar school,
these things are intrinsic there, but many western teachers of Ashtanga Vinyasa
and other styles, also live this way. Even the mere principles of sattvic diet,
which are so natural in the Indian yoga that they are mentioned very briefly,
sometimes face fierce resistance of “asuric minds” here in Russia or Ukraine.
How do you think, is
it better to practice yoga of one school or try different ones?
It is better to start in one
school, just get an idea of what it is and get some feel of yoga. You can get
around various schools, teachers, choose what you like most and practice this
style for a year or a couple of years. After some time, when you have some basic
knowledge and skills, you can try other methods more consciously and widen your
horizon. To make a really conscious choice, you should know on your own
experience what you’re choosing from. Your priorities may be changing while you
are progressing in yoga, it’s quite natural. My own experience is the
conglomeration of what I have found the most suitable after a detailed study of
different schools. But first practice scales and then play music. For some
people one “fixed” method is enough for the whole life. That depends on a
person’s needs.
What styles or
schools of yoga do you find the most suitable for you?
What concerns asanas
practice, I like the heritage of Sri Krishnamacharya. I mean not only Ashtanga
Vinyasa style, but also the variability of approach of Deshikachar, Srivatsa
Ramaswami (another disciple of Krishnamacharya). I also like vyayamas and asanas
of Dhirendra Brahmachari tradition. I studied it from B. M. Singh and Reinhard
Gammenthaller. I consider the combination of static and dynamic body practice
that can be found in both styles, to be the most effective in our conditions.
And what concerns shatkarmas, pranayamas and meditation practices, the most
extensive approach is that of Sivananda and Satyananda yoga. I for one, also
practice kriya yoga in Lahiri Mahasaya tradition, but I don’t teach it. In this
tradition one cannot teach without transmission (Guru diksha) from previous Guru
in the lineage. And apart from that the practice of kriya yoga is always
individual. I used to practice classical Ashtanga Vinyasa for several years and
I have been to Mysore many times. Then I started advocating more freedom of
choice in what concerns forming the order and the set of asanas. So I
conglomerate what I have studied in different Indian schools. I have also picked
up some very useful things from Andrey Lappa and Shandor Remete.
What’s the role of
creativity in yoga? Can we use this notion at all when speaking about yoga
practice?
My opinion is that
creativity is possible in such aspects of which you are well aware and in which
you are experienced (at least 10 years of regular intensive practice). For
example, if somebody has had enough practice of asanas in different schools and
knows all the pros and cons of different approaches (because no one is 100%
perfect), knows the principles of compensation in asanas and creation of a
logical sequense, this somebody can build up his or her own approach to asanas
practice. And in order to hold pranayama experiments, it is not only necessary
to know how the breathing system works, but also understand the work of nadi
channels, the impact of different proportions and kumbhakas on the state of mind
and the subtle coverings (koshas).
A mechanical combination of
techniques induced by intellectual western understanding of “progress” (doing
the biggest possible amount of techniques in the shortest possible time) is a
sport approach, which means, the quantity and velocity mean more than quality
and state. In sport, it is important to achieve the maximum results, whatever it
takes, maybe even if it makes you disabled eventually. This is an
ego-motivation, an asuric motivation. Yoga works in a different way. That’s why
I prefer using the original traditional techniques in pranayamas and meditation.
It is, of course, possible to invent all kinds of sophistications, but who knows
what will the subtle fruit be? I don’t want to hold experiments on people. I
have the right to offer what I am sure of, what has been proven by the
experience of generations of yoga practitioners.
And what is the role
of creativity in your life? What forms does it take?
I finished a school of art
when I was a child, and now probably, the creativity in my life is writing
articles and essays on yoga and related topic. It is the main interest in my
life.
Sooner or later yoga
practitioners face this question: is it worth leaving society at least for some
time to perfect your practice without any distractions? Have you ever faced it?
Is it possible to practice anything but asanas living in this environment?
You have to be honest with
yourself. You do yoga for yourself, right? Not for some other guy. Do you really
want to leave this environment? If so, then what holds you? If you’re thirsty,
you drink. Leaving the society you live in should be just as natural, if you
really need it. I like living and practicing alone in the wild nature for a
while. But I don’t feel any necessity to leave the society completely yet. Time
will show what I will be like and what I will want after ten or twenty years.
It’s not worth indulging in this topic now.
A lot of things can be practiced in a social environment. The famous yogi of the
19th century, Lahiri Mahasaya, who was a master of high realizations
and had siddhi, witnessed by his disciples, lived all his life as a family man
in the noisy pilgrim city of Varanasi. If the social environment doesn’t affect
your practice, you wouldn’t care. But for most people it matters, and the affect
is not very positive. That’s why I think that some now-and-then seclusions are
good for a practitioner. You won’t be able to keep it long, if you’re not ready.
You’ll just run back seeking new impressions. So it’s natural, everyone has his
own path.
Another relevant
issue for many practitioners is how to find a Guru, a teacher, who would lead
then in their practice and in their life. You are among the lucky ones who
happened to find such a master, aren’t you?
I tried doing various
practices as my regular sadhana, Indian and Tibetan practices and I got some
results that I found considerable, but still the desire to continue the search
remained. I received kriya yoga from Sri Shailendra Sharma in 2005 and I have
kept to practicing it regularly together with hatha yoga and a number of classic
pranayamas. In fact, kriya yoga of Lahiri Mahasaya is also a particular sequence
of pranayamas, mudras and bandhas. They are all described in Hatha Yoga
Pradipika, but not in detail. And with a Guru you get a live lineage and
mastering system.
How did it affect
your life? Did you find the answers you had been searching for?
How did it affect my life?
There is more order in my life, and, as they say, I kind of lay back, and
started seeing life differently, taking it easy. What I like about Sri
Shailendra is that he leads in the practice and knows on his own experience
about different levels of Samadhi, but he doesn’t strive to lead his disciples
in their life, so to say, to tell them how they must live and what they must do.
He appreciates disciple’s liberty and independence. I have to admit, that
sometimes our understanding of freedom is just desires of our ego and a
possibility satisfy them. But learning on your mistakes is the most effective. I
also like his original thinking. There are many "officially serene" Indian Gurus,
who transmit only copy-book maxims. Sri Shailendra knows how to “burn”. A good
sense of humour is among the things I appreciate in people, I have always liked
Castaneda’s Don Juan and Don Genaro for that.
Do you think that a
yoga practitioner should find his or her Guru only in India?
Seeking a Guru is a serious
issue. I wouldn’t recommend making quick choices. It’s better to watch different
masters, watch how they live, how they behave “backstage”, think it over, listen
to your intuition. Mind that you’ll spend the following years of your life
practicing what this person suggests, not knowing the results before you do. It
takes some particular trust for the tradition, and, first and foremost, trust
for your Teacher. If we talk about traditions of the East, the best place to
search is where these traditions have existed and have been developed
continuously. This way you have more chances to find something really worthy.
There might be people who achieved high realizations in the West, too, but in
yoga it takes several decades of persistent sadhana. There are many good masters
specializing in asanas, but on the level of raja-yoga there are very few of
them. On the other hand, as everywhere, there are plenty of jugglers,
self-claimed Gurus, or those who got this status in India for “baksheesh”.
Actually, it is the question of your attention, knowledge and understanding. Who
wants to be tricked, will easily find a trickster. Who wants to do some real
practice, will find a real master.
What music do you
like? What do you read?
I listen to Californian
psychedelic music of the 60’s and classical Indian music, like ragas, north and
south indian bhajans, sanscrit mantras. Some western bhajans also – like Krishna
Das, Bhagawan Das, Turkantam, Moti Ma, Wah, Ragani. Nowadays I mostly read books
on my theme, yoga and eastern philosophy. Sometimes I read about airplanes, I’m
keen on piloting small airplanes. I have tried flying on Sessna with an instructor in
Saint-Petersburg, now I’d like to continue.
Back to yoga: what
practices and styles do you prefer to teach on your classes?
I prefer asanas, combining
the methods of Krishnamacharya and Dhirendra Brahmachari, though I can hold
classes in some style, like Ashtanga Vinyasa, Brahmachari or Sivananda yoga. I
teach pranayamas, basic ones or more complicated ones in the traditions of
Sivananda yoga, as I studied them in detail when I took a personal course with
Dr. Madavan.
We also practice the basics
of meditation on the seminars, basic raja yoga practices, Sivananda and
Satyananda yoga. In addition to this, I visited classes in Swami Gitananda
ashram in Pondicherri, and they have a number of interesting techniques that
can’t be found in other schools. I stably give yoga practices of deep
relaxation, such as cyclic meditation (after my first teacher Jayakumar
Swamishri), Yoga Nidra after Swami Satyananda. People living in a modern city
have many ulterior muscular and psychic tensions, results of our hectic life in
the modern environment. Such practices help to spot them out and release them,
to dissolve them. It prepares mind and body for a more effective yoga practice,
and just gives you a calm perception of reality.
On the workshops abroad as
well as on the certification teachers course for instructors, I also lecture on
the history and philosophy of yoga and related teachings, different schools of
Hinduism and Buddhism. We study primary texts, like Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita,
Yoga Sutras, Hatha Yoga Pradipika. When we hold workshops together with Mikhail
Baranov in warm countries, in India, Thailand, Turkey, Egypt, we always give
shatkarmas, purifying yogic practices. In general, on the workshops I try to
follow the approach of “Purna Yoga” to a possible extent, which means
introducing different aspects of this holistic teaching at least on beginners
level.
Questions by Max Yasochka & Olga Sidorenko
for website
yasochka.name
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