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Question: First,
I want to thank you very much for giving me an opportunity for this
interview and the question that I have, it’s not a question, You are
very well known in New York and America as a teacher of other hatha yoga
teachers and in the rest of the world you are popular for your very
famous Master Yoga Chart of 908 Postures, so can you tell us, who was
your teacher or teachers? Who was your biggest inspiration in creating
this poster and have you ever been to India?
Dharma Mittra: Well, first of all, I have never been to India, and
I met my guru here in NYC, Swami Kailashananda, known better in the
United States as Yogi Gupta. He is the first one who had brought hatha
yoga to America back in the early 1950’s. I had learned many hatha Yoga
postures with him. I had lived with him from 1965 to 1975, and was the
one assigned to attend to all his needs every time he came to this
country. I was indeed very lucky and blessed to be with the guru all the
time. I had to shave his head, wash his clothes, prepare his food,
totally provide for daily needs. By being near him, and watching him all
the time, I had learned many things one would not know otherwise. I
totally devoted the majority of my time to karma yoga. By doing this I
learned that to copy the master, spiritually, mentally, and physically
was most important way to absorb spiritual knowledge. I wasn’t very
interested in astrology, or gathering information on how to remove one’s
bad karma, I only wanted to do selfless work for the attainment of self-
realization. My entire focus and concentration was on the Lord Shiva,
who represents the supreme self. By going straight towards Lord Shiva,
one does not have to worry about the other thirty three hundred and
fifty million gods, instead you merge with the self of everything.
Swami Kailashananda (Yogi Gupta)
In 1975 upon leaving the ashram with full inspiration. I
began teaching regularly for about two years. At this time I started
thinking about making a yoga chart with all the poses that I knew. I
went out searching for every book that was available in book stores that
were available at the time by yogis, as in Master Sivananda, Swami
Satchidananda, Mr. Iyengar, and my Guru as well. As students came to
practice with me, we also exchanged our knowledge and new poses, so I
also learned from my students.
Dharma Mittra in New York
By 1984 my plan for the chart had solidified, and I began the
process of selecting all the postures that I wanted in it. Again I was
so extremely inspired spiritually at the time, that I knew that one day
this chart would be a great value and eventually that reality became
truth. The process began by spending about three months taking pictures.
I took all the pictures by myself. I had two cameras set up, a regular
camera and a video camera behind it with a monitor on my side, and a
remote control. For many of the poses I had to use the remote control in
my mouth, assume the pose, and have about three or four seconds to
quickly spit it out. I was a bit difficult, because I had very little
time to assume the posture. I was also very concerned that the pose had
to be correct, with proper shape and angles. This why I had the monitor,
so I could see when my body would totally reach the right angle and that
is when I would click the remote control.
It took me another two or three months to cut the pictures,
to make print them in dots because I didn’t have computer. I spent all
day cutting near the skin and then I put them like all together in one
page like a puzzle and take to a place to make them in dots and then I
have to cut again and then I have all these pictures in my classroom and
with the pins and during my class I have another board here with the
threads, with the lines where the poses are going to be aligned,
whatever, set. So during, my class, I keep moving picture by picture to
the right place. And after maybe a month or two I finish that and then I
glue then together. I spent a lot of time with the Sanskrit names. Most
of the names are in English because I could not get the right name. And
I had a lot of difficulty in finding printers and finally I found the
printer and I printed five thousand to start. I sold many for ten cents,
most for free. And then, after today, I think I print already maybe
thirty or forty thousand or so. And that was it. I don’t know, I just
had the intuition. I don’t say, myself …I did it. It’s something that
just comes from inside. And the postures also, many poses, were, how you
say, done with inner intuition too. Through this inner divine intuition
many variations developed from the poses that are nowadays very popular
here. I don’t like to say that it was me, Dharma. Some people don’t
understand, I don’t have I and mine. Whatever’s done, I don’t feel like
Dharma did it. It is something passing through my body, mind.
I don’t have I. I don’t consider that it was Dharma. It was
done in the name of everyone. So that was blessed indeed to have this
role, to be a divine channel for these things.
908 asanas poster by Dharma Mittra, first
published in 1984
Q. Nowadays, there’s a few several different styles of hatha yoga
that are very well known and that have different approachs to the
asanas. Some schools emphasize the static holding the asana and precise
alignment, while the other schools are concentrate on flowing movement,
concentration and breathing .How important is the the style of asana
performance, from your point of view, and why there are so many styles
in hatha yoga?
It all depends on every teacher. Every teacher who teaches
yoga has a bit of their own personality in their teaching. My guru did
not waste too much time on postures, or on alignment. He mainly taught
and practiced the headstand, the eight main poses, and the mudras. His
focus was on using the time to practice and concentrate on the yamas and
the niyamas. I learned early on of the importance of purifying one’s
heart thru the eight limbs of yoga by being reverent, do not hurt anyone
in word, deed or action, and busy yourself in the practice of
meditation. The best and most important way to clean the heart, the mind
and the physical body is thru the mudras, emphasizing them in the
headstand, and the shoulder stand. I have one student who came from the
Iyengar school and practices with his veins popping out, and in perfect
alignment. But what they are lacking is something spiritual, do you
understand? No one had taught him how to become more involved with self
realization and to follow the yamas and niyamas, in other words to
educate the person in self realization.
But eventually in all these types of yoga, some of them as
you said concentrate more on the flow, or alignment, will attract
exactly each person according to their own karmas and tendencies, do you
understand? So some Iyengar students don’t like my practice because I
don’t concentrate all the attention to alignment and or spend all my
time on postures. Regardless I see everything as perfect because it fits
different types of students. Even in cases that the teachers motive are
not honest, it’s still perfect. They will attract dishonest students
according to what they deserve. As the students purify their hearts,
they will attract the honest teachers who are involved with self
realization and tell them the goals and all the rest.
Q. Some yoga teachers in the West create their own yoga styles,
sometimes it is a mixture of yoga, taichi, chikung and so on. The others
think that it is important to follow the directions of the founder of
the tradition and not to invent anything. What is your opinion?
What I think is this, first of all if the instructor is self
realized and doesn’t have the “I” in it, “I” and “mine”, or the feeling
of the doer, and is in a state of sattva, then whatever passes through
them is utterly perfect. If they think that yoga should be combined with
golf, for instance, and if he has no I in it, no personal thing in it,
then it’s good. If they have the idea of raising money, making big
business, then it’s a problem. I think that for the teacher who is
involved with self knowledge, he can change the way. Whatever comes to
him is perfect. But I don’t agree with a student who has just a,
certification and then wants to make his own stuff because of his ego,
yoga power, yoga this, this is me, and you know…but, of course, even
that will hopefully gradually lead everyone to the right kind of yoga.
It’s perfect. You understand, everything’s perfect, because there are
students who are going to deserve all these little things. But, in
reality everyone will be enlightened gradually until they reach the
final. Well, the final teacher, you know, is within you. The supreme
teacher. I am not a teacher either, I’m just pretending. Sometimes I
feel like I’m going to change my name to Swami Pretendananda.
Q. The purpose of hatha
yoga is to control prana. Some people think that to reach this goal
simple asanas, bandhas and pranayamas are enough. How can you explain
the existence of complex asanas such as ghanda bherundasana or padma
shayanasana?
This is
for those students who are very flexibleand who like to go that route.
For those people who like to go like that, then that is a way. Like for
me, I don’t even encourage the student, I sometimes mention that if you
are youngand you want to put your leg behind your head and do these
crazy poses, then of course you gain some physical power in order to do
it, but the asanas in reality is not yoga yet. It’s just a preparation
for pranayama. So, what’s the rest of your question to that?
Q. The purpose of hatha
yoga is to control prana. Some people think that to reach this goal
simple asanas, bandhas and pranayamas are enough.
Well,
the real purpose of yoga is self realization, God realization.
Q. What is the main goal of Pranayama?
The goal of pranayama, the main purpose, is to unite prana
and apana in the navel and bring them up the sushumn therefore
stimulating all your charkas so your consciousness will open. You can
achieve that just with pranayama and devotion to the Lord. As the Hare
Krishnas who use bhakti yoga, singing for the Lord and eating good food,
to bring them to a state of bliss. So pranayama is one of the steps, but
the main path is the yamas and niyamas. Purify your heart and you will
become like a child. Make sure to combine this with surrender to the
Lord. Without surrender to the Lord and the yamas, there is no yoga. Of
course if you do pranayama and go through these other tortures that are
very difficult, you can be subject to that energy, and speed up your
progress. You can speed up the rising of the kundalini, but you MUST
follow the yamas first, and then it issafe to raise the prana. Many
people do kundalini yoga and they are not prepared in the heart and
mind, they have some experiences and then they go through terrible
health problems, mental problems, emotional problems and disturb their
psychic channels. So again the main thing is the yamas and niyamas and
those who are a little lazy and don’t want to do anything, they can do
the easy parts of yoga, headstand and the pleasant poses. You don’t even
have to cross your legs… you can sit in a chair. I seat myself, mostly
in Egyptian pose because I have some knee problems from the army many
years ago.
Q. Speaking of difficult poses, the way I understand it, those
difficult poses and forms, it’s not the end in itself, but it is very
necessary for the advanced level student who wants to touch the
restricted limit in order to extend the psychological range and it’s
very important for them to get into this pose to test themselves and my
question is, what would be your tips for the people, what they should do
to avoid the danger of damaging the physical body, because this involved
a lot of flexibility in the joints?
Well, I
think the teacher and the student himself has to warm up enough before
the difficult poses and also, the diet has to be right. I know when my
diet is mostly live and raw I can usually move my body perfectly without
any injuries. But the student has to use his common sense and the
teacher to has too. I have seen teachers hurting people too sometimes by
crossing the legs too much. And in some cases with the headstand,
pushing the head down too much. I had once a lump back here, like this
(points to hamstring area). The doctor said to methat for ten thousand
dollars he could remove it. I said, no, no, no. I have to find out what
is the cause, maybe I was trying to get my toes to my head by pushing
too much. I think the student has to use his own intuition. There should
be no pain. But, the injury is part of the process. I have injured
myself thousands of times, but when it heals and when you get hurt like
that, you get very strong. And if you get injured again it’s usually
much less. You just have to have a nice teacher. For example, a teacher,
like me, who had been hurt so many times can tell the students, oh watch
your your neck, don’t go with the back here, stay here. So it is best to
have a teacher who already passed through the mistakes and then he can
tell you what the wrong steps are.
Q. In some schools, teachers give pranayama to the students right
from the beginning along with the asanas, while in the other schools,
it’s strictly prohibited to use any practice of pranayama unless the
student gets to the certain level of asana and can sit in padmasana for
long time. So what you think is the right approach to this?
Well, I think the right teacher will attract the right
students who want to go through the rules. These rules are known as
TRADITION you know. In order to practice pranayama one has to be nice,
be reverent, and have good qualities as well in order to do it the right
way. But it depends on where you are and on what the kind of teacher you
want to follow. Like, my Guru, they would never allow people to see the
guru unless you take classes with the disciples first, and for many
months. In order to be initiated I had to do two years of selfless work
and attend every class everyday.. everyday, ...everyday. Only then, when
the Swami says:" I think he’s serious enought about it", we will
introduce him to the guru and tell him about the initiation to the guru.
So, there are restrictions, some gurus are not open. Most times when I
give my clas, I just put everything out. In just one class youmay learn
everything, because I tell you about reincarnation, the location of the
Lord within, in other words what is most important. If you absorb this
then that’s it, you know. I tell you what is the cause of pain, and
everything divulged in one class. What happens is perfect, nothing is
wrong. Not even a blade of grass moves by accident.
Q. A lot of people have
been interested in kundalini awakening .Do you think it’s enough to
practice hatha yoga in order to awaken kundalini or some special
kundalini practice need to be involved or maybe kundalini is just an
ancient myth that does not exist and if it’s not so, have you ever met
in your life somebody who had an experience of kundalini and does it
mean that this person has attained enlightenment and is it possible to
experience kundalini in the west not being in an ashram in India?
Hmmm, I
think I have met people who do kundalini exercises not, how to say, to
achieve self realization, but for the experience. But that experience
might give a person a push in the right direction. One can get extremely
enthusiastic because you see something there inside and then you are
always striving to get that back. It’s wonderful, but I have seen people
also, with some problems, they went too fast and they didn’t have the
foundation because in order to do kundalini, you have to prepare your
nerves. You have to do some basic pranayama exercises, develop some
healthy habits and purify your heart. Even without that, a person may
have experiences even if the foundation is no good. They receive a
little glimpse of that and then they go and have some bad effects. That
happen to me a long time ago playing with this, but now, I don’t play
with that anymore. It’s terrible, because I wasn’t prepared for it. And
then, that little experience may be the base, the push to do the rest
because the experience will never leave your mind, you know, it’s in
there and you always strive for it now. It’s very quick, you can make
progress fast, but you have to be careful. To not go fast because if you
damage too much, then you become open to a negative psychic influences.
It’s like drugs, exactly like drugs. When you take LSD you are
experiencing something in the astral plane, but you are not ready to go
into that divine space. You will experience it anyway and then you are a
victim to of plenty trouble. You may damage your astral body and your
psychic channels and then you are a victim to negative influences and
psychic attacks. You may destroy your subtle body too.
Q. The climate in India and Latin America is very warm and very much
different from United States, especially in Russia. Should the
practitioners do adjustment in the practice according to the climate
where they live because the body of the people who live in the west and
in Europe is much “harder” than people who live in India.
Yes, if you can afford to make the room feel comfortable and the right
temperature you should make those adjustments. But for those who can not
afford it, they have to do with whatever is there. They will also have
to adjust the proper diet as well for that climate. But if you can
afford it, let’s say as here in the United States you can have the room
heated as you wish. I have been in Miami, it’s wonderful to do the yoga
there because, the body is already warmed up and it is more rare that
you would hurt yourself. You can move twenty percent more easily.
Q. What about the
practice itself? Should the practice be changed with environment and
according with the climate?
The
kind of practice?
Q. Yes, should there be
more time spent on vinyasa to warm up the body ?
Yes, if the climate is a little cold and probably if the room
is not the proper comfortable temperature. Then you should spend more
time warming up the body It can be done thru pranayama-bastrika or sun
sunlutation traditionally. It eventually naturally comes to each
individual by intuition as they get to know their bodies more.. I have
some students who are always wrapped up in blankets, and then others
that want to sweat, and then others who want the windows wide open. The
problem is they are all next to each other. Eventually thru time and
practice one should be able to deal with whatever there is, that is
yoga-and be content no matter what.
Q. In India yoga is not
only hatha, but also karma, bhakti and jnana yoga. In many western
students, after practice of hatha yoga, interest in learning of the
sacred texts is awakened. But we grew up in a material culture, that is
why high words about Enlightenment seem to be so far away from our
everyday life. If in India a person can get inspiration from a darshan
of an enlightened teacher, in the west it is hard to find such people.
Religion of the native country does not inspire confidence, besides it
opposes yoga (for example our Orthodox Church says that yoga comes from
devil!). How can people come to bhakti if they grew up without belief in
God, and the word God is an abstract religious term for them?
Well,
in India, it’s much easier to achieve yogic philosopy. You don’t have to
renounce anything because you have nothing to renounce. You don’t have a
car you don’t have a television, you don’t have chair, you are born only
with the lotus pose. You have no choice but to sit and meditate. You
have no distractions at all. I have seen many yogis who were very well
controlled over there, but when they come here to America, the problems
begin - name, fame, prestige, too much adoration from people. Some
people are so involved in the business and the name and the ego that
they lose all that they learned. Now they are attached to food,
prestige, name and all the pitfalls of materiaism. What about the last
part of your question again?
Q. Religion of the
native country does not inspire confidence, besides it opposes yoga (for
example our Orthodox Church says that yoga comes from devil!). How can
people come to bhakti if they grew up without belief in God, and the
word God is an abstract religious term for them?
That
you can easily do. Last week, I had someone ask me, what about people
who don’t believe in God? I tried to explain to them that there is an
intelligence that controls everything. It makes your heart beat, makes
you see, digests your food, and decides if you are going to wake up or
not. Who controls all this?.... God. I usually tell people that in the
movie Star Wars there was a force. It is the core of this force that is
controlling everything and it is hidden right there in the center of
yourself. That is why I always say, it is important to respect this
force which is comprised of a tremendous amount of intelligence and
bliss, that is what we call God. God is not in forms that humans
resemble and that punishes people, sending people to hell forever . Yes
there are other smaller Gods who do that, but not the force itself. For
those persons involved in meditation, and who don’t believe in God, I
try to teach them how to go here (points to center of chest, the heart
center) and then very soon, they will start to believe in this force and
then they are going to say, Oh!, that’s the center. People say Oh!
...So you should encourage them to concentrate their mind,
concentrate it here in the heart center and then follow the steps of
yoga. To be nice, kind, respect everything, help everyone, remove the"
I" and "mine", and then gradually, he himself is going to find all this.
The intelligence of God is there. I don’t like the word God either. It
is the Self! It depends on how you see the name God. There is Brahma
with a human form, but Brahma is also the God involved with creation.
Brahman is the supreme Lord or the supreme self, beyond all names and
attributes. The absolute Brahman is always here, and is formless. It
iseverywhere, like the ocean, endless and limitless, and it is like the
space everywhere and it’s also everything else within. This is the self.
this God. The Lord is here in your heart at all times whether you know
it or not. It’s incomprehensible because it’s formlesnesss and you
cannot understand it with the mind. The mind is already illusion too.
Only when you lose the body, you may see Him.
Q. Ancient yoga texts
were written for the people, who lived in another epoch, another nature,
and had another mentality. We do not live in Himalayas, we live in noisy
big cities, with bad ecology, a fast speed to life and an aggressive
social surrounding. How can we follow traditional texts, how to
correlate their directions with our conditions?
Well,
you should not go too far with the scriptures unless you have
enuthuaism. If you are trying to understand about karma, about
reincarnation, about seeing inaction in action. If you try to understand
that whatever’s happening is due to previous action, then some people
will give up and never do anything anymore, they will become lazy. So,
you have to become very careful not to go too far beyond your limit of
understanding. If you are teaching someone, you just tell them to do
some nice poses, be nice, help others and don’t go too far with the, you
know, mental psychic things. In the Bhagavad Gita you see a warning
there in the last chapter…Don’t tell this to those who are not ready yet
otherwise they become lazy and don’t want to do nothing more. They will
abandon action - everything’s there, I don’t need to do this. So, you
have to be aware of the person’s desire to know, you know, it’s
according to their mindset. You have to go slowly, just encourage them
to be nice to others. Involve them with a little concentration on the
breath so if they don’t believe in these thing here, just watch the
breath, do the poses correctly, do the breathing for good health and as
they do this in the company of people who have spiritual knowledge, they
will be bombarded with good thoughts. Thoughts of reverence,
renunciation, dispassion, then gradually it’s there, the psychic. Just
be in the company of people who change the way they think.
Q. In traditional texts
it is said, that Guru is necessary and without him it is impossible to
fulfill purpose of yoga. But Guru is not just yoga teacher, to whom you
come study asana at the Gym. So it means, that sooner or later, if we
want to reach the things, which are written in the texts, we will need
to find spiritual teacher and become a Hindu (because yoga teachers,
which belong to traditional parampara`s, are usually Hindu). Is it
correct?
There are many Americans in the state of samadhi here, and
they not only yogis. Like most people who do yoga, when I started, I
preferred “ananda”, whoever had the name ending in ananda was from
India, otherwise I wouldn’t take class from them. But nowadays, there
are many living saints here. Not only in America. but in other places.
These are people who you have to see if they are enlightened by the way
they act. The should be in a state of bliss, without the I and mine that
I mentioned earlier. Also, it depends on what you have done in the past,
if you have been with gurus before. I know one case in Brazil in which a
man met his guru on the astral plane, not on the physical plane. One
day, he had a strong vision of this and he just needed a little touch.
Everyone needs a little push, one to direct them to show them the real
teacher inside them.
Even Jesus, you know, and all of the saints have always meet
someone to guide them a little bit and teach them to remember the real
teacher is inside. You are your own master. If you really seriously look
inside, you will know what you should and should not do. Most people
need a guru and some people don not. It is very rare for those who can
rely more inside only. They read some scriptures and it feels like they
have read some knowledge from the past. I have,.. I am not sayingthat I
am anyone special, but I have read so many things in the scriptures,
that I already know. But some people, just can’t. They need someone to
enlighten them and that is mainly according to the previous lives and
tendencies. In reality in most cases, everybody needs a guru. Your first
guru is your mother and your father!
Q. What will you advise
to those people, who live in the places where there are no yoga
teachers, but who want to start practice?
Well,
now like in my case growing up in Brazil, I read the books for years. I
don’t think there is much of a problem getting them because now we have
internet. If you can correspond with someone who gives lessons on self
realization, they send lessons for you to do this, do that, next month
they send the next. But, you should get busy with the books and start
practicing the yamas and niyamas. If you are really sincere then don’t
worry, you will be led to someone. A teacher maybe, then, if it’s not
enough the teacher will show you his teacher. It is said, when you are
ready, the teacher appears. But in the mean time, just go to the books
and always try to understand. It will come, if you are really looking,
don’t worry, just go to the books.
Q. It’s a big pleasure
to sitting over here and listen to what your saying and in the end, do
you have any message to all readers of Russian Yoga Magazine?
Oh, the
readers, I hope they understand what I have said. I am so happy if
people get the magazine and read it and then get the REAL meaning of it.
This is all I could hope for and may this teaching help them.
Q. Once we put it onto
paper, I will send to you the interview so you can look at it and edit.
That’s
fantastic, so that’s good to see the Russian and the Sanskrit. I am very
happy to see that yoga is spreading like a virus.... right?
Pam: A good virus for
once, a good virus.
Dharma: This magazine and
all these people who read the magazine in Russian, I am very grateful
that you are here also interviewing.
Pam: It’s a little
different than our Yoga Journal.
Dharma: More traditional, very different. If yoga continues like this,
the hospitals will be out of business soon, except for accidents.
Pam: Dharma, do you ever
see your Japanese student, the woman?
Dharma: Mineko?
Pam: Yes, does she still
come by?
Dharma: Yes she does come
to class about once per year as she visits N.Y.D. I also meet many
people who come recommended by her.
Pam: Is she doing fine?
Dharma: Yes, she is doing
alright.
Pam: A very interesting
story. Dharma had a Japanese student who was living here. Her family was
in Tokyo and she was living here for a long time and she came down with
cancer and they had to do some surgery and they also had to do some
radiation and it affected her thyroid and so they gave her medications
to take, hmmm I remember this so well, she went to Dharma and Dharma
gave her sounds, so she cut her thyroid medicine. She was taking three
pills at the time, so she cut it down by one pill, I mean, so she was
taking two pills. She continued to make the sounds and going to see her
doctor and the doctor said your doing very well, stay with it, stay on
your plan and some more months went by and she cut it down by two pills
so she was only on one, going to see her doctor for regular check ups
and the doctor said you are doing fine, stay with the medication.
Ultimately, she cut the pills out entirely, she went to the check ups
and the doctor said your doing fine, stay with the medication and she
continued to go for her regular check ups and then he began cutting her
down, but she was already on nothing!
And also, Dharma’s guru, Yogi Gupta, I was not there, but I
was told, that he called a gathering of his students and anointed Dharma
as a guru, so that’s a very traditional, classical way of doing it. So,
you’re looking at the real McCoy here.
Russian Yoga Magazine
#3, 2003
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